HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 5:29 AM Thread Starter
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Jeff
 
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HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Been doing some thinking lately about a build down the road. What are the pro's and cons on running a HR cam with solid roller lifters? This will be a pure street car with AC, 4 wheel power disc brakes, cruise, T56 Magnum, etc., something I can jump in and drive anywhere. I'm not looking for a max power engine either, drivability and durability is what I'm after. It will either be a 454 or 496. Thanks Jeff

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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 7:20 AM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Why not run a cam and lifters that match? There are plenty of solid roller cams available with softer ramps, I assume that's what you're after? There are also high rpm hydraulic roller (most are called "short travel" or something like that) lifters that'll buzz to 7K.

Or are you like most of us with a bin full of parts of differing origins, looking to use some of the mismatched treasures we've accumulated over the years?

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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 8:41 AM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

That subject has been beat to death a hundred times here. Do some research. You'll find every answer you want, and the ones you don't.
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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 10:00 AM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

If I had a choice, I would just start with a tight lash solid roller cam. I have a Bullet hydraulic roller in my 491 235/246 @.050 .6xx lift on 111 lobe sep. I got sick of the lifter noise issue so i pulled the hydraulics and put pressure fed Howards solid rollers on the same cam. I initially set the lash at .004 on the intake and exhaust and this was much quieter than the previous lifters. I have since played with the valve lash and actually have them at zero lash cold which results in about .006 hot. It runs great and is much quieter!
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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 10:22 AM
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Gene
 
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Jeff, SHORT ANS: The pro builder says its kosher to do so. (MJ) See the recent thread on Alan's refresh. SHOULDNTBEHERE or something like that.


Yup, plan on doing same, solid rollers on an Isky HR. Deemed kosher by the builder. More of a durability issue, and we get a few hundred more revs out of the springs. Oh, and MOSTLY, I seek a 1967 375hp style idle, relatively mellow, good vacuum, and a screw machine shop hummin'. The gentle delicate sound of solids, not the more nasty clackity-clak of ill running hyds. Well, today's HYDs. I do get that the ramps on a HYD cam are ground different than a solid. Adds to durability I'd guess, even with the wrong lifter. Harold Brookshire explained to me how the take up ramps on a hyd are slightly longer. Hence in part the 8 though diff in durations bet H and S cams.

Durability: This engine is getting stamped with Old Red's VIN, so durability is paramount. Its PERMANENTLY in this car. ( I'll LS the next Chevelle I buy, a rat rod!
TOTAL Blasphemie! )

Plus, with any roller valvetrain on street duty ( to include 5-8 hour highway runs), I should think that pulling valve covers for visual inspection is de riguer on a set schedule, so why not check lash? PS, the SFT in the old 427 buzzes above 7 all the time. The ONLY time I had to set lash in the LAST FEW YEARS was when the clutch 'stuck' during a spirited jaunt in 20 degree temps, and she must have buzzed well past 8. No float, sounded prefect harmonically. ( sweet ass actually!) Must've stressed a pushrod or trunion some though. Maybe a valve bounced, but I didnt hear it . ( only the BANG! when the clutch finally unstuck and dropped!) Isky 8005-a springs and Ti retainers. I'll ask for Ti retainers on the MJ special as well. I'd think the springs are a bit stiffer then the 8005a is all. Not 500+ on the nose. 420 or so.

I'll pull the intake to swap 1X4 to 3X2 once in a while, which gives the opp for a "deeper" look see as well.

So,,, "normal" maintenance with a roller cam in a rat, to me anyway. They arent "fire and forget", HYD or solid imho. And if Alan can run around the country in his Corvette running that setup ( runs th ebigger 238 cam) , I can do the same in my Chevelle - DARN IT!



PS: a funny story : my first Chevelleabration, 2004 I think, BLT4FN asks me to set his lash , as it seems loud. On the show field. Well, Shaun is partially deaf. When I heard the racket I was STUNNED he drove from Canada that way! I tried not to alarm him, but set on my task. Well, lo and behold, come to find out through an interrogation with a deaf man, I am setting lash on HYD cam. With solid lifters. Through trial and error ( 2+ hrs on the show field and ruined my show shirt), I get lash down to 2 thou, where i think it sounds acceptable. Ran fine. All the way back to Canada, and another few years that way.

Holy dumb friggin' luck Batman!

and, it works, even inadvertently. So I gots some experience, the old fashioned way by effing something up - almost.

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Last edited by 427L88; Jan 30th, 19 at 10:43 AM.
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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 11:35 AM
 
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Quote:
Originally Posted by 72BB Nova View Post
Been doing some thinking lately about a build down the road. What are the pro's and cons on running a HR cam with solid roller lifters? This will be a pure street car with AC, 4 wheel power disc brakes, cruise, T56 Magnum, etc., something I can jump in and drive anywhere. I'm not looking for a max power engine either, drivability and durability is what I'm after. It will either be a 454 or 496. Thanks Jeff
The issue for years was cost of lifters that would live on the street for a solid roller. Morel introduced a pressure fed needle lifter last year that is under $570. This gives the performance guy a very affordable lifter that can live on the street.

Depending on the lobe area needed for you combination, the right lobe can give you the power you want and reliability.
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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 12:18 PM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
Jeff, SHORT ANS: The pro builder says its kosher to do so. (MJ) See the recent thread on Alan's refresh. SHOULDNTBEHERE or something like that.


Yup, plan on doing same, solid rollers on an Isky HR. Deemed kosher by the builder. More of a durability issue, and we get a few hundred more revs out of the springs. Oh, and MOSTLY, I seek a 1967 375hp style idle, relatively mellow, good vacuum, and a screw machine shop hummin'. The gentle delicate sound of solids, not the more nasty clackity-clak of ill running hyds. Well, today's HYDs. I do get that the ramps on a HYD cam are ground different than a solid. Adds to durability I'd guess, even with the wrong lifter. Harold Brookshire explained to me how the take up ramps on a hyd are slightly longer. Hence in part the 8 though diff in durations bet H and S cams.

Durability: This engine is getting stamped with Old Red's VIN, so durability is paramount. Its PERMANENTLY in this car. ( I'll LS the next Chevelle I buy, a rat rod!
TOTAL Blasphemie! )

Plus, with any roller valvetrain on street duty ( to include 5-8 hour highway runs), I should think that pulling valve covers for visual inspection is de riguer on a set schedule, so why not check lash? PS, the SFT in the old 427 buzzes above 7 all the time. The ONLY time I had to set lash in the LAST FEW YEARS was when the clutch 'stuck' during a spirited jaunt in 20 degree temps, and she must have buzzed well past 8. No float, sounded prefect harmonically. ( sweet ass actually!) Must've stressed a pushrod or trunion some though. Maybe a valve bounced, but I didnt hear it . ( only the BANG! when the clutch finally unstuck and dropped!) Isky 8005-a springs and Ti retainers. I'll ask for Ti retainers on the MJ special as well. I'd think the springs are a bit stiffer then the 8005a is all. Not 500+ on the nose. 420 or so.

I'll pull the intake to swap 1X4 to 3X2 once in a while, which gives the opp for a "deeper" look see as well.

So,,, "normal" maintenance with a roller cam in a rat, to me anyway. They arent "fire and forget", HYD or solid imho. And if Alan can run around the country in his Corvette running that setup ( runs th ebigger 238 cam) , I can do the same in my Chevelle - DARN IT!



PS: a funny story : my first Chevelleabration, 2004 I think, BLT4FN asks me to set his lash , as it seems loud. On the show field. Well, Shaun is partially deaf. When I heard the racket I was STUNNED he drove from Canada that way! I tried not to alarm him, but set on my task. Well, lo and behold, come to find out through an interrogation with a deaf man, I am setting lash on HYD cam. With solid lifters. Through trial and error ( 2+ hrs on the show field and ruined my show shirt), I get lash down to 2 thou, where i think it sounds acceptable. Ran fine. All the way back to Canada, and another few years that way.

Holy dumb friggin' luck Batman!

and, it works, even inadvertently. So I gots some experience, the old fashioned way by effing something up - almost.
Ate you going to use Crower ss endurance roller rockers again on the MJ 475?

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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 19, 6:44 PM
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Alan
 
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Gene, So far the jury is still out on mine. I definitely love the reduction in valve train noise and the sewing machine sound the valve train does make now. I absolutely love how much more responsive and rev happy the engine is. From a performance stand point, hands down, the solid lifters rule.....

I will say there is definitely an added paranoia though, worrying about every little sound I hear and rushing over to a valve cover to listen for "abnormal" noise. IF you are OCD to the max like me, and every little noise can send you into a panic, the solid roller setup may not be the best for your mental wellness. I ran the valves on mine before it went in the car, and I'm about to check them again with about 200 miles on it, JUST TO MAKE SURE nothing is moving. Reliability and long term maintenance are obviously undetermined for me at this point but... driving characteristics and performance, hands down go to the solid roller lifters.

All that being said, NONE of these lifter choices should be a "throw them in and forget it scenario". My Morel hyd roller lifters were eating the wheels off of them at 25k miles so....I think lifter inspections should be considered routine maintenance, regardless if its hyd or solid. I'll be pulling/replacing my lifters every 15k miles or so from this point on, had I pulled my hyd rollers out at 20k for an inspection, I wouldn't have needed to rebuild the engine. That was one expensive set of lifters.

Like CStraub said, now Morel solid rollers are $500 a set....I figure if I have to throw a set in every 5 years or so to maintain reliability, its money well spent.
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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 3:26 AM
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Geoff
 
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

If you have the HR cam already, I would have no qualms about using SR lifters with it, but keep the lash tight, 0.006-8" hot.
If you have yet to buy the cam, then it makes sense to buy a SR cam if you are going to use SR lifters.

There is a thread on YellowBullet.com about wear/discolouration on the rollers & lobes, consensus was that it was the oil that caused the problem. Hmm...
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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 8:30 AM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Alan, I left the vacuum guage mounted in the car after I did all my carb tuning. I use it as the dead true signal a valve is amiss is why, I dont trust my ears, I trust my vac guage. Once it start fluttering, something's moved. Well, sometimes hot fuel causes a thin idle, but its pretty foolproof. Also helped when I lost the intake gasket , internally, playing where is the vac leak? In the galley!
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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 5:36 PM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

As was discussed, Vince and I played with hybrid setups 6-8 years ago. Consensus on the board was mixed, although both of us picked up MPH at the top end, nothing but lifter change. With that said, the argument against it always was that solid roller lobes have longer clearance ramps built in than a hyd roller, hence the need to run them tight lashed. IIRC (and maybe he'll quantify this) Vince tried running his Comp 286XR solid roller at "0" lash cold, same way you would set up a hybrid with alum heads. It was actually very quiet and as I recall ran real well. Obviously without any lash dialed in the cam effectively acted bigger.


As for lifters, I had a set of Crower here at one point, these were the non-pin oiler type. Last set of rollers I had were from Competition Products. Direct lube, lightened lifters.

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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 6:41 PM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

I have to be careful so as not to misquote a pro, but Mark indicated it would likely make less HP than the hyd lifters, in his 467 hyd roller combo specifically, as the "228 is a bit small already" for that lil beast... ( my words not his!) so my build will use what he says, HRs.

The amatuer over here thought it "grew" a cam, when it actually "shrinks" it.

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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 7:07 PM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
I have to be careful so as not to misquote a pro, but Mark indicated it would likely make less HP than the hyd lifters, in his 467 hyd roller combo specifically, as the "228 is a bit small already" for that lil beast... ( my words not his!) so my build will use what he says, HRs.

The amatuer over here thought it "grew" a cam, when it actually "shrinks" it.

Yes sir, anytime you add lash you reduce the effective time off the seat. On an alum head motor, we set the valves at "0" cold and sure enough lash grew to .006-.008 hot. Iron head motor, I think it's the opposite, you set it cold with lash and it runs darn near close to "0" hot.
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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old Jan 31st, 19, 11:03 PM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

It`s not a problem and can work well. I think it was about 15 years ago that we first gave it a go.

We`ve put 10`s of thousands of miles on a number of motors ranging from 383 to 555" inch.

I recall a 406" we had that had been placed into a work truck (Short Bed 1500 Chevy) that hadn`t had the valve covers off in about 8K miles of borderline abuse. Valve train was always quiet.

The only reason we checked lash after all that time, was to go over them one last time for the new owner who put it in his 67 Camaro. Only needed one valve snugged up a tic.

It`s definitely system specific but it works.

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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old Feb 1st, 19, 1:21 AM
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Re: HR cam w/ SR lifters pro's & cons

Here's my MJ 467.


4.310 x 4.00, 9.7 compression, 781 ovalport GM heads ported 2.190/1.880, reproduction GM low rise LS6 intake manifold, 780 CFM factory LS6 carb. 228/238/.553/.578/111/106 Hyd roller, solid roller lifters lashed @ .010/.012. Modified GM 4 quart oil pan, M77 oil pump. Tested on 91 octane gas. Maxima 10/40 oil.
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