66 convertible - Impala Tech
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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66 convertible

I just bought a 66 convertible. Thinking of pulling the 283 2bbl for a big block. I also want to convert to power disc brakes. It's currently a number matching car. What would these upgrades do to the resale value? It is in great shape and looks terrific it just doesn't go as good as it looks. I know it's mine and I can do what I want. What are your thoughts on this from a resale perspective. I'll eventually sell it.

Kevin
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 08:31 PM
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If you do it RIGHT I don’t think it’ll hurt the resale value. Probably increase it. But remember——-Do It Right!
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 08:59 PM
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1966 full size left the factory with a 390 horse PASS head 427 as an option. You could order the 435 horse 427 (HiPerf head solid lifter version in 1966), but you had to pay cash for the car and special order it. The car can handle a big block, just with today's gas you want a big BBC because the heads haven't changed since 1966; so it will be making the same power levels today (about one horse per cube). So if you want 500 horse build a 496 cube motor. Want 550 horse; build a 555.

Big blocks where designed to be circle track race car motors. Problem is the heads require more compression than modern gas will support, and race gas is $8 a gallon (and these engines never made more than six miles to a gallon). High compression makes more power but it gets hard to keep up with gas consumption.

Big Dave
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 02:38 PM
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There is nothing like original in my opinion, but if you are going to change the Engine, I would do it right like mentioned above.

But the Disc Brakes are another thing. They were never offered in '66. It would be a toss up between what you want and losing the originality of them. If you do swap, save all the original parts though.

Also, in my opinion, it would sell better original.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 03:31 PM
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If you want the most value out of it, keep it original. Buyers don't buy mods, they buy cars. Every dime you spend modding it will be thrown away at resale time. If you are going to enjoy it for twenty years, do whatever you want to enjoy it.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 62BillT View Post
There is nothing like original in my opinion, but if you are going to change the Engine, I would do it right like mentioned above.

But the Disc Brakes are another thing. They were never offered in '66. It would be a toss up between what you want and losing the originality of them. If you do swap, save all the original parts though.

Also, in my opinion, it would sell better original.
Disc brakes appear on modern cars not because they stop better, they don't (more on this in a sec) but because they are cheaper than drum brakes. They appeared on the front only because of the emergency brakes require a drum brake. So for decades the rear brake remained a drum brake. Current four wheel disc cars use the Emergency brake only as a parking brake. Because of the pressure required to stop the rotor from turning the pad size on the e-brake is so small you would hit whatever you were trying to stop from hitting because it takes an airport run way to stop the car with just the e-brake.

Now for that provocative statement about a drum brake being more efficient at stopping a car. Drum brakes are self activating. The shoes want to dig into the drum to stop the drum from turning. It takes two really stiff springs to counter act this force. Because of this drum brakes require half of the pedal pressure to work. With a drum brake you can lock up the brakes at will in a panic stop. That pretty well maxes out the braking effort.

Aside from cost why do race cars and sports cars have disc brakes if drum brakes work better? This is because repetitive braking (such as LeMans, Watkins Glenn, Sebring or even short track roundy-round racing) pump a lot of heat into the brakes. This heat leads to brake fade unless you have carbon fiber rotors and ceramic pads as found on super cars. Disc brakes have their braking surface hanging out in the open to shed heat. They are often vented on race cars and have vanes cast inside that move air from the hub to the out side to increase heat flow. Even so at night you can go to an endurance road race and see the rotors glowing cherry red continuously as the drivers are on the brake and gas, heel to toe all during the race.

I might add that the trucking industry sill used drum brakes on semi trailers and they have no trouble locking up dual and triple axles trying to keep from hitting a dumb four wheeler pulling in front of them.

So how do you improve drum brake performance? Get a bigger drum off of a heavier vehicle, or off one that drove a lot faster such as early Buick and Pontiac finned aluminum drums with wider shoes inside. Station wagons police cars with HD brakes are a good source, as well as five lug pick-up truck brakes from the sixties. You want a wider drum and shoe combination with a heavy drum to absorb the heat of an emergency stop. Even so you have to consider these brakes were designed to stop the car twice from a highway speed of only 45 mph (the national road speed average in 1967). From higher speeds you risk brake fade from heat build up.

One final word about disc brakes. They push the wheels further out increasing track width up to an inch and a half; which can be compensated for by buying custom wheels with reduced back spacing. Because they require nearly twice the pedal effort to work you generally have to go to power assist brakes. And if you retain the drum brakes in the rear you need a proportioning valve to reduce the hit of the brake line pressure to prevent skidding.

Big Dave
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 10:00 PM
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post

Now for that provocative statement about a drum brake being more efficient at stopping a car. Drum brakes are self activating. The shoes want to dig into the drum to stop the drum from turning. It takes two really stiff springs to counter act this force. Because of this drum brakes require half of the pedal pressure to work. With a drum brake you can lock up the brakes at will in a panic stop. That pretty well maxes out the braking effort.

Big Dave
I've read this several times from you and I still don't believe it.

Drum brakes don't have any advantages over discs, they fade faster, add more weight and don't provide the same braking forces. And if they aren't adjusted correctly they are even worse. Using semi-trucks as a high performance benchmark isn't inspiring. Which is why they are moving to discs...

Brake Trends: Drums vs. Discs - Articles - Safety & Compliance - Articles - TruckingInfo.com

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 10:41 PM
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I've read this several times from you and I still don't believe it.

Drum brakes don't have any advantages over discs, they fade faster, add more weight and don't provide the same braking forces. And if they aren't adjusted correctly they are even worse. Using semi-trucks as a high performance benchmark isn't inspiring. Which is why they are moving to discs...

Brake Trends: Drums vs. Discs - Articles - Safety & Compliance - Articles - TruckingInfo.com
Drum brakes have been self adjusting since 1959; so adjustment isn't an issue unless you have a circular drive and never back up. Backing up and tapping the brake a few times as you do it adjusts your brakes for you to compensate for wear.

Drum brakes on these old cars are adequate for mostly all driving except road racing or mountainous terrain where you are on your brakes a lot. Barke fade is an issue in panic stop from high speeds because as IO mentioned these brakes where designed in the early sixties before limited access high speed roads where built. Back then the national average speed limit was only 45, not 60 as it is today. That means you are over driving your brake design by a third. Which is ok because the engineers back in the sixties built in a 50 percent safety margin.

On these old cars disc brakes are more of a liability than an asset. People jump to the idea that they have to be changed.

Further drum brakes are lighter than disc brakes. Just put them on the scale if you don't believe me. That lightness is part of the brake fade issue. You have to have cast iron to make a good heat sink to absorb the heat energy of all the friction. So light is bad and heavy is good.

This is why high performance disc brakes are so large. More metal to absorb and radiate the heat. The pads are the same size no matter what size disc you have, just moved further out from the hub. Race cars are occasionally built with two calipers per wheel to extend pad life and increase the surface area on the disc for a better grip on disc that frequently heat check during a race.

Big Dave
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 09:51 AM
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I'm siding with Big Dave on this.

I don't have his historical knowledge, but I'v been driving long enough to (~55 years) have many miles of experience on drum/drum, drum/disc, and disc/disc systems. In 'normal' driving there is no appreciable difference between the 'systems'. As Dave said, reduced fade/better heat shed are the advantage of disc brakes. If that's not something one deals with on a regular basis, there is no imperative to change to discs.

Modern breaking SYSTEMS are superior to older SYSTEMS, but that's due to many (computer controls, advanced faster acting hydraulics, tires, suspensions, etc) factors.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 10:56 AM
 
 
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If you're not going to use the car I can see the reason for not needing to change the brakes. But if you're going to use it regularly it's not a bad idea, especially if you plan on hopping up the engine.

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by swooshdave View Post
If you're not going to use the car I can see the reason for not needing to change the brakes. But if you're going to use it regularly it's not a bad idea, especially if you plan on hopping up the engine.
As for '...not going to use the car...". I 'used' ALL my cars regularly. And I drive my current '63 convertible with 385 hp/445 lb-ft torque (its a 383 sb), 4 speed manual regularly (but I don't commute with any car any more). I am unconcerned about the ability of the car to stop as needed. It will do what it has always done; stop with aplomb.

Disc brakes (on these type/vintage cars) are NOT an imperative, in my opinion (except in conditions subject to frequent/persistent 'fade'). Can they be made to work? Yes. From that aspect, are they a 'bad idea'? No. But, they complicate the car's systems unnecessarily.

I doubt we are going to agree on this; and that's OK. I respect your opinion, but disagree with it.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 02:09 PM
 
 
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I think the discussion has two points which can cause discourse: Are disc brakes superior to drum brakes and are drum brakes sufficient for these vintage cars?

The answers are yes and maybe.

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 03:16 PM
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Sooo, back onto the OP question, you are not going to hurt resale value by adding the big-block and front disc brakes. The market for it will be larger if you do those things, IMO.

But I'm not trying to challenge what JayOldSchool said, because he's also 100% correct. I'm just being specific about 'resale value'. It's value will undoubtedly be more, but like Jay eludes,......we all only get like 30-40 cents on the dollar for our modifications on a GOOD day.

PS. I'm probably biased as I have a 66 Vert and I trashed the original 283/3-speed/10-bolt. Disc brakes coming this winter I hope!

HOW A NOVICE REBUILDS A 66 IMPALA CONVERTIBLE:
http://www.impalas.net/forums/blog.php?u=1432
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 04:33 PM
 
 
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Originally Posted by BA. View Post

PS. I'm probably biased as I have a 66 Vert and I trashed the original 283/3-speed/10-bolt. Disc brakes coming this winter I hope!
You just HAD to bring up disc brakes!

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