Removed X-Member for a Boxed Oil Pan on a 68??? - Impala Tech
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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Removed X-Member for a Boxed Oil Pan on a 68???

Hello,

in a HI-Po book I have read that a performance engine benefits from a bigger oil pan a lot.
Since I build a 540cid which will go with turbos later and I plan to reinforce my frame anyway I thought that is what I could do too.

They cuted the X-Member under the engine and conected the framerails in the front of the car.

I made a sketch with a 66´frame which should similar with the 68´.

Please look at it and tell me your opinion or if you see any problem doing that on the 68´Impala.

Thanks Hannes
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 08:33 AM
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Torsional rigidity would be my main concern.

Most high horse applications use a dry sump, with a three inch deep pan from to rear as it just clears the bottom of the crank. The portion you are removing would resist twisting more so than the rectangular tubing truss.

Race cars have nothing beneath the pan so they can remove it to rebuild the engine in the pits between races. If you do not think you will be doing that frequently I see no need for removing the cross member as a dry sump pan will fit were a wet sump pan once sat. Back when I was racing; if I blew a motor while racing, I would swap in a spare motor rather than attempt to fix the broken one.

Big Dave
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
 
 
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I think if I make the tubing from somethink like Cromoly steel it would even benefit from the tubing.
I you look exactly the eara that was the crossmember before is also supported from the tubing.

I got the imparession that this Impala frames are really weak done.

Thanks Hannes
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 06:25 PM
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Hey Hannes,
Welcome to this Great site of Information. Big Dave has a point....with everything you're doing on that '68 ,why not go with a dry sump system? It will reduce clearance problems, and the oil in the pan(wet sump) won't get "whipped" around. Another possibility is to get a complete chassis from someone like Art Morrison. I don't know if he makes one for 65-70 Impalas but it would come with everything you seem to be looking for, disc brakes,strength,and if you would like Independent Rear Suspension.
I'm NOT a engineer, but from what you show in your pictures could work. I would consider though putting in "motor plates" and making the engine block a part of the chassis. Downside of that procedure is you will know EVERYTHING going on in the drive train through the seat of your pants!!!! Keep us all informed on how it is proceeding, it looks like a little trip across the border to "The Autobahn" is in the future.
Gary
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBDropTop View Post
Hey Hannes,
Welcome to this Great site of Information. Big Dave has a point....with everything you're doing on that '68 ,why not go with a dry sump system? It will reduce clearance problems, and the oil in the pan(wet sump) won't get "whipped" around. Another possibility is to get a complete chassis from someone like Art Morrison. I don't know if he makes one for 65-70 Impalas but it would come with everything you seem to be looking for, disc brakes,strength,and if you would like Independent Rear Suspension.
I'm NOT a engineer, but from what you show in your pictures could work. I would consider though putting in "motor plates" and making the engine block a part of the chassis. Downside of that procedure is you will know EVERYTHING going on in the drive train through the seat of your pants!!!! Keep us all informed on how it is proceeding, it looks like a little trip across the border to "The Autobahn" is in the future.
Gary


I will look if Art Morrison makes a chassis for my car although I doubt it.
As for the plates, I dont want to get to crazy, it will be still a street car and should drive like an real american Muscle, not like a Honda

Chassis would be nice since I also want to narrow the back of the frame to get wider tires in the car.

Does someone know what the widthest tires possible for a 68 Imp in the rear?

Hannes
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 01:06 PM
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I agree with Big Dave. I don't think you'd wanna remove structure from the area the engine mounts to. It would twist too much. You could notch the center section to allow for more room under the oil pan, but I wouldn't take it out completely.

Good, Fast, Cheap, but you can only pick two!
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
 
 
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Sent a mail to Art Morrison yesterday, expect answer today or tomorrow although I am almost sure, for our cars (60´s impalas) he will have nothing.

Thanks Hannes
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 07:59 AM
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There is more than just Art Morrison making chassis, and chassis upgrades like front half and back half conversions (or parts like tubular A-frames).

Detroit Speed, Fatman Fabricators, S&W Race Cars, Big Dog, Bell, Impact Race Products, The Chassis Shop, WyoTech (they have to teach with something so they will build your car), Chris Alston's Chassisworks, H&E Chassis, CSC Racing, Jerry Bickel Race Cars, Don Davis Racing, ART (Applied Racing Technology), Alston Race Cars (not Chris), Lamb Components, Lazarus Race Cars, Scott McClay Engineering, Spitzer Race Cars, to name just a few who are drag oriented (check with a NASCAR freind for high speed stuff).

Big Dave
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
 
 
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Ok backhalfing would not be a problem (since especially the rear of my frame needs to be changed) but else?

The problem is that all of that backhalfs including ball joins which, how I have been said, are very loud, hard and therefor not streetable.

What is a tubular A-frame??? I mean, I know a about a tubular subframe but what is the A for?

Thanks Hannes
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 03:49 PM
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Back halving a car generally is done to gain clearance for steam roller sized slicks and utilize either a four link or ladder bar set up for positive placement of the rear end and traction control (you can adjust the weight bias). Most chassis shops take your car and cut out the floor pans with a plasma cutter and then replace everything that used to be a frame and suspension with a jungle gym of chrome molly tubing. This lightens and strengthens the car and the body is dropped back on like a flopper but instead of being permanently hinged or removable it is usually welded to the frame (with light weight components replacing doors and sheet metal that bolts to the body.

The A-frames are the two suspension components that are on the front of your car that hold the spindle upright. They are stamped steel pieces from the factory that are heavy and bendable (as in be careful replacing the bushings as you can easily bend the A-frames out of shape). On most aftermarket suspensions they are replaced with a chromemoly tubing triangle that is lighter and stronger than the factory part.

Big Dave
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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Yes yes, I understand, I just know it by the term tubular upper A-arms.
I also need to narrow my rear frame since I go with a 540 twin turbo BBC and that makes the widthest rear tires availeable necessery.

Anyway, how I stated erlier, the 68 Impala frame looks very weak to me.

Hannes
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:37 PM
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 03:15 PM
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Before you drop over a thousand horsepower into a frame designed for maybe a quarter of that force I would suggest you read this book. It will save you a lot of money and maybe your life.

http://www.amazon.com/Door-Slammers-Chassis-Dave-Morgan/dp/0963121707/ref=sr_1_2/175-6616310-1036506?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227125635&sr=8-2
Big Dave
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
Before you drop over a thousand horsepower into a frame designed for maybe a quarter of that force I would suggest you read this book. It will save you a lot of money and maybe your life.

Amazon.com: Door Slammers: The Chassis Book: Dave Morgan: Books

Big Dave
Thanks Sir, that is my opinio too, I have bought a book named how to build an award winning drag race suspension.

The book is nice but altough they stated for street and strip there is nothing for streetcars in it.

How is with Door Slammers, I build a streetcar, so race hints are only usefull to certain degree.

Thanks Hannes
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 04:33 AM
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You can not drive on the street with a thousand horsepower (a conservative estimate for a twin turbo 540 motor). I have a 750+ plus horsepower normally aspirated 582 (with another 350 horse in Nitrous) that I have discovered can not be driven safely on the street. There aren't tires that will hold that level of power. It is like driving every foot of your trip on ice (takes all the fun out of it) plus at cruising speed the rear end wants to pass me if I so much as tap the gas which can be a thrill not only for me but for the guy in the lane next to me on the intersate.

Big Dave
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
 
 
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Long time ago that you guys could smell me here on the bord in my thread.

As for the 1000HP, I think there are some guys meanwhile driving HP-Levels like that.

For now I dont want to go with the TT-Setup.

I am thinkin about to go with an Morrison-Chassis, depends on the price tough.

Any experience with his chassis and there rigidity (is that word correct?).

Thanks
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