1964 ss 409 - Impala Tech
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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1964 ss 409

Please decode for me...

Cowl:
Style - 64-1467TA 05A
Body - 3259
Paint - 936
Trim - 815 2
W2M3C50

VIN: 41467 T 257080

Casting: 3844422 (There is also an "X" on the block--front driver's side.)

T155072 TII09QC

I believe I have an SS409, and hope that the "numbers match". True?

Thanks for your help.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 10:46 PM
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Well you have a 1964 340 horse 409 (single Rochester 4G carburetor) that was sitting originally in front of a four speed tranny. It is apparently now sitting in a two door Impala SS convertible. The SS convertible was originally painted Ermine white with exterior chrome trim (5O) and it had a black vinyl bucket seat interior with a padded dash (3C). It also had a tinted windshield (W), and left the factory with a PowerGlide installed (2M) and not the four speed manual that the motor said it had. So that may not be the original motor that it had when it left the factory; which is confirmed by the fact that the partial VIN stamped on the motor identification pad doesn't match the VIN you read off the VIN tag.

Big Dave
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
 
 
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Thanks for taking the time.

The car is 2 door, vert. Are you saying that 409s did not ship in convertibles? It does now have a single quad. There are buckets and a padded dash. I can see that the tunnel was modified to accept the Hurst 4 speed that is now in it.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-10-2013, 01:18 AM
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I think the TII09QC means November 9th? And the build date for the body is the first week of May, which also would not really make sense for an original engine.

Also, there weren't normally partial VIN's stamped on 1964 engines where there?
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-10-2013, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth View Post
I think the TII09QC means November 9th? And the build date for the body is the first week of May, which also would not really make sense for an original engine.

Also, there weren't normally partial VIN's stamped on 1964 engines where there?

Highly desirable parts (such as anything out of a Corvette other than the base engine), and the 409 engines where all marked with the car's partial VIN back in 1964 to combat car theft rings.

In Canada all car parts were marked with the partial VIN starting in 1964 (the US was supposed to be marking all engines and transmissions as well under an international treaty, but Congress had been dragging it's feet. It passed legislation in 1965 that didn't require actually marking all motors and trannys by law until Jan 01, 1969).

Big Dave
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 10:39 AM
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Going from memory... aren't "X" blocks warranty/dealer replacements?

Two doors, four doors, wagons, and ragtops.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayoldschool View Post
Going from memory... aren't "X" blocks warranty/dealer replacements?
No the X was placed on all of the blocks cast (production as well as service blocks) starting in 1962 to make it easier to tell a 409 from a 348. I personally was sold three or four 396 motors that the seller swore were 427 motors only to discover that I had paid $250 for a $3.95 decal. A 396 was good only for the heads, assuming you wanted PASS oval port heads which no one did back in the sixties. Everything else went on the scrap iron pile and became a Datsun or Toyota. Nobody wanted a 396 once the 427 became available.

If you put a 409 oil pan on a 348 motor then it is a 409 for all extents and purposes because the only way to tell what you had was to tear it down.
This was because they both look alike from the outside with the only difference visually is the dip stick tube is located on the drivers side on a 348 and the passenger side on the 409.

Believe it or not back in the day 409 oil pans sold across the service parts counter for about $22 or so; combined with the fact you couldn't give a 348 away once the 409 came out. Everybody wanted one and swapping pans allowed you to sell your 348 at a 409 price.

This should give those who pay SS car premiums for SS clone cars that dishonest people have been around a lot longer than cars have been around (Psst ... hey buddy! I got a smokin' good deal on a used horse. Belonged to a little old lady who only took it to synagogue on Saturday).

Big Dave
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 05:17 PM
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It's interesting the car and engine are both from Tarrytown cars. Can you post pics of the engine pad and cowl tag? Also, try to get the casting number and numerical date code from the back, top of the block. The casting number for the block will be either 3830814 or 3844422.
Warren
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-12-2013, 01:16 PM
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My 64 Impala was a 409 car originally, it says 409 in the VIN. It now has a 454 engine installed, heard the 409's had thin cylinder walls and were not real dependable.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-12-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64ImpalaRed454 View Post
My 64 Impala was a 409 car originally, it says 409 in the VIN. It now has a 454 engine installed, heard the 409's had thin cylinder walls and were not real dependable.

If it has 409 appearing in the VIN that is just a coincidence in the sequence numbers. Neither the VIN tag nor the Trim Tag indicate anything other than your car being either a six or an eight cylinder powered car (I have no idea what the factory does if you had the four cylinder installed; but that was a possibility).

The 409's only weakness in terms of it's block is in the main webbing. It was too thin to withstand the loads that a solid lifter cam could impose upon the block. Because it is a flat head engine, the combustion chamber is in the piston. This creates a very heavy piston that weighs more than a 502 piston does (665 grams for a stock 502 and 817 for a stock 409). That heavy a weight hanging off of a small 3/8-24 rod bolt resulted in a lot of failed rods or rod bolts (it's a toss up which breaks first). This was because the 409 shares the same stroke as the SBC 350 at 3.500" inches (the 348 used the same stroke as the 327 at 3.250"). The short stroke allowed the engine to rev up quickly and once above the 6,200 RPM red line you where living on borrowed time (the reason the 409 is so rare today).

The cylinder wall thickness isn't a problem and you can safely bore a 409 stock block out 0.060" over (you can go 0.100" over with a truck block if the sonic check says the cores have not shifted).

Big Dave

I loved my 1953 Chevy 150 powered by three different 409 motors that all gave their lives unselfishly so that I could make a fool of myself on the street back in the good old days. The Mark VI engine was a significant improvement in terms of reliability, but it didn't have the same character that the 409 did.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-12-2013, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post

In Canada all car parts were marked with the partial VIN starting in 1964

Big Dave
I'm not sure if someone told you that or you read that but it's certainly not true for any Chevrolet or Canadian Pontiac engine I've ever seen for that era. I've seen the partial VIN's on 68's for sure, possibly some 67's but never ever on a 66 or older Chev/Pontiac engine in Canada. I wish it were true though!
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